What makes you think that authoritarianism wasn't essential to maintaining such a system? :frage:

We would soon be forced to live in such a system again due to the depletion of Earth's resources

>>25657917 also work was >very easy to get >very chill to do >no deadlines no sprints, noone cared if you didnt show up every now and then >noone ever made it a problem to take vacation or sick days

>>25657938 >What makes you think that authoritarianism wasn't essential to maintaining such a system? that's what I wonder was it? why? in some socialist countries it was fairly relaxed like yugoslavia or czechoslovakia

>- stable economy with no fear of crashing tomorrow Yes, that was the desired perception. Planned economy never wins.

It wasn't sustainable for long.

>>25657963 Czechs got invaded that one time they relaxed too much tbh

>>25657990 it was ok for most time, there was not stock market crashes like in 1930's or housing bubbles like in 2008 there might have been shortages of fuel or meat or electircity or this or that but in the end you knew you will have your job unthreatened (even if it paid shit), you wont lose your flat, you wont end up homeless, just because banks decided to "invest" in subprime mortgages economy shat the bed only at the end when it was ogre so this is the model I would prefer- maybe not nearly as wealthy as capitalism, but more stable for the regular Joe

>>25658001 >Czechs got invaded that one time they relaxed too much tbh yeah, I wish they were left alone we could see if relaxed rules socialism can work maybe other countries would follow the suit

The Polish People's Republic was destroyed by allowing foreign forces destroying the state from within (the Church).

>>25658025 nah catholic Church in Poland was thoroughly riddled with informants and agents of the security apparatus to a point where SB/UB agents were surprised how an organisation based on shared faith, and one that survived 2k years, was so easily infiltrated and their members blackmailed* or threatened into submission it is one of the reasons why there was never any propper decomunisation and all the archives were not made public like in Czechoslovakia, because it would, among other things, show the Church in a very bad light *) catholic priests diddling boys is not a new thing, it happened way more in commie times, but it was kept shush by the police because diddling accusations were a great way to blackmail a priest who is the confessor of the entire village, and thus a great informant

>>25658053 Not at all, the Catholic Church has always and will always act in favor of the Vatican, which is controlled by the CIA.

When you think about it really, the only thing communists did even slightly wrong was being responsible for the deaths of over one hundred million of their own countrymen.

the main problem is that planned economy sucks ass, simple as this shit is unproductive, inefficient and slows down everything in the country. a state enterprise with a monopoly in railway transportation is fine, critical infrastructure should be in public hand anyways. but shit like clothes manufacturing? screw factories? furniture makers? all this stuff doesnt work anymore under a planned economy. shit like "its not bad when you dont have to choose between 20 yoghurts" is fucking cope, id much rather be able to just buy a tv, a radio or a phone if i have the money, not being written on a list to maybe recieve it 20 years later standard of live in the gdr was way, way lower than in the west, and if you dont have an authoritarian system, people are gonna protest this sooner or later, and since your economical system is so obviously worse than that of countries with just social market economy, people will inevitably bring it down if you dont crack down on them

>>25658081 Political coup in Poland was possible only and exclusively with the help of Church (Vatican).

>>25658081 >Not at all yes, on local level it was thoroughly riddled with informants only the upper echelon, was working for CIA, and even then probably some were double agents

>>25658089 >Political coup in Poland was possible only and exclusively with the help of Church no there was no coup, there were coup attempts in 1960's, 1970's, 1980s etc. But in 1989 there was no coup, commies knew that economy is about to shit the bed very, VERY hard, and didnt want to end up like Musolini (and they were right to worry, see what happened to Ceausescu) they basically handed the power over to the opposition, so that when the shit show starts, it will not be on their watch by then they had everything they needed to get rich in the new regime, see also the FOZZ affair and virtually all the early 1990's economic scandals that were all ex-regime operatives getting rich using their remainign influence

>>25658092 It seems that these secret services have done nothing to prevent the cancer from killing the country and the minds of Poles.

>>25658109 >It seems that these secret services have done nothing to prevent the cancer from killing the country and the minds of Poles. see >>25658108 up till late 1980's all the opposition has been squashed and had no effect on country politics. All mass protest had been pacified with force then in late 1980;s commies suddenly dont mind mass protests, and willingly give up half of the power. Mind you, only the ruling commies were aware how bad things really are economics-wise, both in Poland and in USSR as well and just as they give up the power, all the economy crumbles, and who is left holding that hot potato? the new regime

>>25657917 >why isn't it possible to have a 1970'1980's soviet block socialism, just without the authoritarianism

I grew up in 1980's times before the internet were shit you were forced to go outside and interact with kids who would bully you daily and my parents didnt care because "thats how kids play just play with other kids" vacation was going to some shitty shithole in middle of nowhere for summer camp, where food was shitty, activities were boring, you had to shit in the outhouse and it was a chore to be there and I had my shit stolen from my backpack at school so many times, I lost count. Basically you could NOT have anything nice because it would get stolen

You have so idealistic vision on commie economy without lines, deficits, riling up people with propaganda, mandatory military service, mandatory labour, favouritism for party members and nepotism going along with exploiting official positions by bureaucrats, black market, getting imprisoned if you try to earn money by yourself which is called "private business" today, etc. Also, you won't have a car. Bicycle maybe.

>>25658199 that's not socialism problem, just polish subhumanity

>>25657963 Because without authoritarism you can't have a directed economy, simple as. You can't avoid free trade, full freedom of travel and accumulation of capital without an authoritarian regime. Those thing give rise to an upper class and so forth and forth.

>>25658200 >You have so idealistic vision on commie economy without lines, deficits, riling up people with propaganda, mandatory military service, mandatory labour, favouritism for party members and nepotism going along with exploiting official positions by bureaucrats, black market, getting imprisoned if you try to earn money by yourself which is called "private business" today, etc. I would be ok with >deficits, if not too heavy, like lack of bread for 10 years > riling up people with propaganda, we still have that > mandatory military service, if it was more like finnish military service, not the prison -like shit we had >mandatory labour, would decrease the number of useless bums and parasites >favouritism for party members and nepotism going along with exploiting official positions by bureaucrats we still have that >black market, getting imprisoned if you try to earn money by yourself which is called "private business" today, etc. I would be ok with that as well, just work in the state provided job, you don't need to be richer than everyone else

>>25658208 >that's not socialism problem, just polish subhumanity it was the same in other socialist states at the time >>25658212 >. You can't avoid free trade, we dont have authoritarianism, yet govt is forbidding trading in narcotics, or for example home made alcohol > full freedom of travel why would that be banned? >and accumulation of capital without an authoritarian regime. progressive taxation exists in countries liek Sweden, where they quite effectively are stopping anyone from a lower class to accumulate capital that would threaten the old nobility

>>25658229 >slavs are subhumans nothing new

Greed is a primal motivator, people will see the upper class of other countries and be envious and want that for themselves (even if it's just a mirage and a change in political and economical system won't directly benefit them). Unless you have been properly indoctrinated into the political system I think human thinking naturally tends to drift towards idealizing all kinds of personal freedoms, even those ultimately detrimental to society

>>25657917 >stable economy with no fear of crashing tomorrow You failed the very first argument. The USSR collapsed firstly because of the failed economy. They made it get bankrupted with their planned stuff and restrictions for free trade.

>>25658242 >Greed is a primal motivator, people will see the upper class of other countries and be envious and want that for themselves then allow them to immigrate to west commies here made it verboten, and were scared af that people learn that west is more prosperous but the wave of Poles immigrated to west (mainly UK) in 00's, and 20 years later Poles realize that it;s not just candy and rainbows on the west, and many are actually considering going back

>>25658218 Except there would be people richer than you, like party members and their family, that would receive benefits unattainable for you. And you would not be allowed to talk about this.

>>25658252 >The USSR collapsed firstly because of the failed economy. USSR economy survived from the revolution till 1991-ish, including a major war that is not a bad performance at all, see how many crises there was in USA sinc'e just 2000's, where masses of people lost everythign

>>25658259 It will and has lead to brain drain, as the most capable and intelligent individuals will be overrepresented to leave. The fact that people are now considering returning to Poland now is that it's a much richer country than when they left, simple as.

>>25658267 >Except there would be people richer than you, like party members and their family, that would receive benefits unattainable for you. like there are now >And you would not be allowed to talk about this. this is the only thing I would change- remove the authoritarianism and allow free speech. This is in the very OP post itt >Why not just remove that part, let people talk wahtever shit they want about the government, just ignore them?

>>25658275 >this is the only thing I would change- remove the authoritarianism and allow free speech Like you have now, so there's mostly no difference lol

>>25658271 >It will and has lead to brain drain, as the most capable and intelligent individuals will be overrepresented to leave allow it, if they pay back for the education they got here before leaving and if they want to return with wealth made abroad, tax heavily any excess over what locals have

>>25658290 >and if they want to return with wealth made abroad, tax heavily any excess over what locals have This point especially is self sabotage. This will just ensure permanently that they never ever return and will hurt your economy unnecessarily

>>25658279 >Like you have now, so there's mostly no difference lol the difference is that we have no other settis that I write about in OP

>>25658302 >This will just ensure permanently that they never ever return and will hurt your economy unnecessarily so be it economy and numbers would not be a priority priority would be that everyone has a rather easy, safe job, which allows you to afford a place to live and food to feed yuor family, and things like healthcare I'd rather have this, than have an economy where we have Intel and geniuses working there earning millions of dollars a year, and everyone else have no healtcare and earns barely enough to pay rent

Did you consider scandinavian style social democracy? (as seen in its heyday, not what we have now) In the case of Sweden you basically have a small hyper rich industrialist class ruled by some oligarchal capitalist families controlling the majority of the economy, then you have the state and unions locked in a permanent state of compromise and negotiation with them about how the economy is managed and maintaining the economy as healthy as possible, while keeping most taxes high and providing a generous social safety net for the people.

>>25658318 while more equitable, Swedish society is still very much capitalist and divided by walth disparity as a human bean, yuo are still being valued by your wealth, there are still people who drive 250k EUR cars (at 22 years of age) and those who can't afford to drive daily. I dont think I would be able to attract a normal woman while also being at the bottom rung of economy, while in socialist countries such issues didnt exist because 95% of people were on more or less similar wealth level. There is a generous safety net, but there is still possibility that once you lose your job, your unemployment benefits will run out, and the only jobs available to you will be ones that do not cover your utilities+basic grocery bill, and are enough only if you live with a family I actually looked into moving to Sverige tbh it looks enticing at the first glance, but then when yuo look deeper it is not so great for example flat prices in any big city are atrocious, and I would not have been able to afford it unless I was ITgarch or a doctor or some other super high skilled specialist, and I know there is social housing, but the waiting lists are measured in >10 years for Stockholm, meaning I would be forever slave to mortgage and always fretting that I will lose my job. And in a smaller town where housing is more affordable, there is VERY high risk that I would end up jobless. I actually know people who gambled this way, and moved to a small town in Skane, burned thru life savings and had to go back within one year Still HEAPS better than what we have, mind you, so please do not read it as insult at Sweden, just it is not the same of what I imagine

>>25658352 Yeah I didn't talk about the post-social democracy we have today, I was talking about like the 60-70's.

>>25658318 also, while I am not racist, I do have experience living amont immigrant community in another country and it is clearly not for me I do not think those people are inferior to me I do not wish them ill I just find the annoyances of living among people of different culture a bit too much for me- I can;t stand constant curry smell, I cant's stand husband beating his wife and his other 2 wives pretending to be her cousins living with them, I am not good at, is all and living among immigrants would be the only possible scenario for me

>>25658361 Again i'm not talking about the brazil tier hellhole we are today, but i agree

>>25658356 >Yeah I didn't talk about the post-social democracy we have today, I was talking about like the 60-70's. I don't know much about Sweden of that time tbh what was it like?

>>25657950 >no deadlines no sprints, noone cared if you didnt show up every now and then >noone ever made it a problem to take vacation or sick days Are you sure? I know that you could be drunk and lazy, but you had to show up. GDR was comfy, I heard; also Poland - but what about the whole block, especially Russia or Ukraine? I that every system whithout too much authoritarianism could work, if you had your own country, tradition and way of life. To achieve that again, one country should begin to show the others how to clean up. And this would indeed need some strict measures, contrary to any democratic principle. Corona has shown us, that it's pisseasy.

>>25658376 I think that. t. drunk and lazy, but working

>>25658364 Economy was essentially planned between the oligarch industrialists, state, and unions while it was nominally a free market. Capital ruled and extraordinary people with great ideas became really rich, but on the whole economical equality was massive. Apartments were built by the state and there was a massive program to increase social housing in the cities kicking in (the same buildings you now have to wait 10 years for because massive population increase due to immigration, which we didn't have at the time). Only a tiny minority of the people would have fancy imported cars, normal people could choose between a SAAB and Volvo.

>>25657917 >it was a near perfect political and economic system So perfect they needed to build a wall to keep people in.

>>25658376 >all this denglish and bad commas Stay in school, shills.

>>25657917 >why isn't it possible to have a 1970'1980's soviet block socialism, just without the authoritarianism That's Jew-go-slavia And even they, despite all their successes, were retarded and failed economically.

>>25657917 The opposition is foreign NGO at that time at least. You put same things as benefits and disadvantages. Authoritarianism is superior because majority of population is fucking retarded anyway. Besides you don’t really decide shit in democrazies. The issue was that even in authoritarian systems not everybody is perfect and people get corrupt which exactly what happened in USSR. They should have further developed NKVD. Comissars from there were taken from orphanage and raised by the party. They became pure communists loyal to the cause. Everything went down the drain when faggot Chrusheov took power.

>>25658391 Yeah, because the wect was better. They wouldn't need a wall now.

>>25658376 >Are you sure? yes in white collar work you could take time off on demand, with no earlier notice in blue collar jobs, like bottom of the barrel ones like worked on a building site, or street sweeper, or some such, you could pretty much not show up for a day or two, as long as you came most of the time, noone cared

>>25658381 >Capital ruled and extraordinary people with great ideas became really rich, but on the whole economical equality was massive. >Apartments were built by the state and there was a massive program to increase social housing in the cities kicking in (the same buildings you now have to wait 10 years for because massive population increase due to immigration, which we didn't have at the time). Only a tiny minority of the people would have fancy imported cars, normal people could choose between a SAAB and Volvo. that sounds like a decent settis to live in dont people miss those politics?

>>25658391 >So perfect they needed to build a wall to keep people in. that's literally the thing I would change- no wall, let them go. If they had higher education, have them pay first for the education and then go Look at North Korea- a lot of people were fleeing it, and then the govt said "fuck it, let them leave", and pretty much opened the border with China. They also eased on the authoritarianism, and Kim Jong Un's Korea is very liberal compared to Kim Ir Sen's and people stopped fleeing, and some are actually going back, even from the richer south because while life is richer in China or South Korea, it is also way more stressfull, you are one job lose away from ending up homeles etc

planted economics doesn’t work without authoritarian state planted economics make states authoritarian if you check who USSR works you figure out that it was democracy but planed economics always turn a democracy into gulag so one can’t work without another USSR literally killed planned economics by dismantling authoritarism China knew this, so that’s why they abolished planed economics but not authoritarian state and won

>>25657917 Literally debil post. The economy was stable because the global technological advancement at the time was much slower (in terms of replaceability), the ownership of cars was BANNED in Poland at the beginning of the communist system and in the 70s/80s the peak of people's dream was fucking Fiat 126p. Literally a lawnmower engine with a car body. People didn't pile up apartments as their investment because people could afford jackshit. In order to get an apartment you had to sign up to a special list and pay some cash, after some years an apartment was APPOINTED to you. People literally waited 8 years to get a telephone back then. I ain't even butthurt because I didn't spend much time in commie Poland but you're probably some very young debil who thinks that things were better back then because diary products were of higher quality, just LOL. I wish niggers like you were sent back in time to these beautiful times. Though I agree you can't be absolutely negative about everything from that era, the positive things were like 10% at most, but it was the basic stuff like food or social interactions but this is literally boomers reliving their youth in their hedas and projecting that their good memories depend on the political system. The reality was that this was a giant concentration camp for subhumans which you couldn't leave and couldn't own basically anything more valuable than refrigerator.

>>25658798 >he ownership of cars was BANNED in Poland at the beginning of the communist system maybe in 1940's and 50;s > and in the 70s/80s the peak of people's dream was fucking Fiat 126p. Literally a lawnmower engine with a car body. it was no smaller than mini or fiat 500 that have popularised car owenrship in UK or Italy shorly earlier, and those countries were heaps more wealthy >People didn't pile up apartments as their investment because people could afford jackshit. once they were assigned apparment, they could afford mortgage how many younge people nowadays can do the same? if you havent inherited a flat after grandma, and work some pedestrian job, you will never own a flat >In order to get an apartment you had to sign up to a special list and pay some cash, after some years an apartment was APPOINTED to you. yes nowadays a square meter of flat costs 2-2.5 times national average salary, and people cannot afford it > but you're probably some very young debil who thinks that things were better back then because diary products were of higher quality, just LOL. quite opposite, I grew up in 1980's, and you are the one admitting you are too young to know those times. >I wish niggers like you were sent back in time to these beautiful times. you are so rabid and butthurt you dont even aruge against what I wrote I do not think those times were beautiful, but could have been very liveable if you removed authoritarianism yes, sometimes there was no meat in stores, and you had to wait 8 years for a telephone but you could take illness leave or maternity leave and noone thought of you badly nowadays people go sick to work, with 40 degrees fever, because mr Janusz Sheckelstein will fire them if they go for sick leave I would take "poor and without phone, but not working self to death" over "has new iphone 15 promax, goes to work sick to pay the loan for the phone"

>stable economy with no fear of crashing tomorrow ask your grandpa how much money he managed to save/invest during commie times. only physical goods survived unstable commie economics in terms of value xD >you don't have 20 kinds of yoghurt to choose from, you get one, BUT it is cheap and free of chemicals. they would add literal shit to make it cheaper and even if a lot of people were butthurt about this chemical they would still consume it becasue there is no alternative and nobody would bother with making production expensive >You can't buy a latest Mercedes S600 but you can get an economy car that will be reasonably priced and still take your family form A to B yeah you just waited for a decade to get a fucking car >you don't have people getting rich and buying 20 flats a month as investment, but everyone has enough money to live and save some aside in fact nobody owned those flats, they rented it from corporation they worked for >you can't buy a huge mansion but flats are reasonably priced and mortgage is cheap party official owned large houses which were equivalent to modern mansion >maybe you don't have full democracy, but you also dont get foreign NGOs and lobbyists yeah there was just grand authority of moscow which commanded everything and could force political changes if upper politicans weren't compatible like in czechia >and you get no political fanboys you had catholic zealots and commie opportunists + useful idiots who actually believed in system